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Join our podcast hosts Lily Smith and Randy Silver for in-depth conversations with some of the best product people around the world! Every week they chat with people in the know, covering the topics that matter to you - solving real problems, developing awesome products, building successful teams and developing careers. Find out more, subscribe, and access all episodes on <a href="https://www.mindtheproduct.com/the-product-experience/">The Product Experience homepage</a>.

The Product Experience

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<p><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-23363" src="//wp-content/uploads/2021/03/6197626296_4972162256-264x300.jpg" alt="Liz Keogh" width="264" height="300" srcset="/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/6197626296_4972162256-264x300.jpg 264w, /wp-content/uploads/2021/03/6197626296_4972162256.jpg 366w" sizes="(max-width: 264px) 100vw, 264px" /></p>
<p>Estimation is a dark art — get it wrong, and your stakeholders will never forget (or forgive). We talked with agile consultant Liz Keogh about how to get this right, who estimates are for, her invaluable scale for estimating complexity, and how to pronounce the word Cynefin.</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 1rem;">In this episode, sponsored by <a href="http://www.hotjar.com/mtp/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Hotjar</a>,</span><span style="font-size: 1rem;"> listen to learn about:</span></p>
<ul>
<li>Making better estimates and using them well</li>
<li>The Cynefin Framework</li>
<li>Behaviour Driven Development (BDD)</li>
</ul>
<h3>Quote of the Episode</h3>
<blockquote class="blockquote"><p>And when they bring it in, now all the commitments have been made, all the promises around that scope have already been made, and this is where they come to designers and product people and say <em>“you should be able to predict the future because we did all the analysis for you”</em>. No you didn’t &#8211; you just spent a year’s worth of time on something which a spike or a prototype would have actually served better.</p></blockquote>
<h3>Links mentioned in this episode</h3>
<ul>
<li>Follow Liz on <a href="https://twitter.com/lunivore" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Twitter</a>, <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/liz-keogh-6240071/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">LinkedIn</a> and her <a href="https://lizkeogh.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Website</a></li>
<li>Liz&#8217;s <em>&#8216;Estimating Complexity&#8217;</em> Blog <a href="https://lizkeogh.com/2013/07/21/estimating-complexity/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">post</a></li>
<li>MindTools article on <a href="https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/cynefin-framework.htm" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">The Cynefin Framework</a></li>
<li>Buy Chris Matts&#8217; <em>&#8216;Real Options at Agile 2009&#8217;</em> book <a href="https://www.lulu.com/en/gb/shop/chris-matts/real-options-at-agile-2009/ebook/product-17416200.html?page=1&amp;pageSize=4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a></li>
<li><em>&#8216;What is Behaviour Driven Development (BDD)?&#8217;</em> piece at <a href="https://www.agilealliance.org/glossary/bdd/#q=~(infinite~false~filters~(postType~(~'page~'post~'aa_book~'aa_event_session~'aa_experience_report~'aa_glossary~'aa_research_paper~'aa_video)~tags~(~'bdd))~searchTerm~'~sort~false~sortDirection~'asc~page~1)" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Agile Alliance</a></li>
<li>Dave Snowden <em>&#8216;Managing in Complexity&#8217;</em> interview at <a href="https://www.firsthuman.com/article/managing-in-complexity-an-interview-with-prof-dave-snowden/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">FirstHuman</a></li>
</ul>
<h3>Get in Touch, Rate Us, and More!</h3>
<ul>
<li>Visit <a href="https://www.mindtheproduct.com/the-product-experience/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">The Product Experience homepage</a> for more information and more episodes!</li>
<li>Know the perfect guest? Great! <a href="https://mindtheproduct.typeform.com/to/oi0UyX" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Suggest them here</a></li>
<li>Chat to us on <a href="https://twitter.com/MTPpod" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Twitter</a> or in our dedicated <a href="https://mindtheproduct.slack.com/messages/CE13B3A23" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Mind the Product #podcast Slack channel</a></li>
<li>Review us on your podcast app so that we can use your feedback to be better</li>
<li>Like our theme music? It&#8217;s Hamburg-based <a href="https://open.spotify.com/artist/1VMVuOfARzbrNK6mCJs14o?si=As_IFCusT8y7mRIRikgYLw" target="_blank" rel="&quot;noopener noopener noreferrer">Pau</a>, featuring ProductTank Hamburg’s Arne Kittler!</li>
</ul>
<h3>Our Hosts</h3>
<p>The Product Experience is hosted by Lily Smith and Randy Silver.</p>
<p><strong>Lily</strong> enjoys working as a consultant product manager with early-stage and growing startups and as a mentor to other product managers. She&#8217;s currently Head of Innovation at Go Compare and has spent 13 years in the tech industry working with startups in the SaaS and mobile space. She&#8217;s worked on a diverse range of products &#8211; leading the product teams through discovery, prototyping, testing and delivery. Lily also founded ProductTank Bristol (which now has 800+ members!) and runs ProductCamp in Bristol and Bath.</p>
<p><strong>Randy</strong> is a <a href="http://outofowls.com" target="_blank" rel="&quot;noopener noopener noreferrer">product consultant</a> and coach who has been working as an interactive producer and product manager across the US and UK for nearly 20 years. A recovering music journalist and editor, he launched Amazon’s music stores in the US and UK, and has worked across sectors including museums and arts groups, online education, media and entertainment, retail and financial services. He’s held Head of Product roles at HSBC and Sainsbury’s, where he also directed their 100+-person product community. Randy&#8217;s book, <a href="https://outofowls.com/book" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"><em>What Do We Do Now? A Product Manager&#8217;s Guide to Strategy in the Time of COVID-19</em></a> is out now, with all profits going to COVID-19 relief efforts.</p>
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Why can’t we get accessibility right? Claire Bauden (SVP Global Product Design, Global Payments Inc.)

Product outcomes and company values go hand in hand – Brian Walsh (SVP of Product, Pendo)

Clarity: The key to product success – Arne Kittler (Product Leadership Sidekick, Product at Heart)

What is your CEO thinking? – Joe Leech (Coach to CEOs)

How to survive the next phase of tech – Jonty Sharples (Product and Strategy Consultant)

Measuring critical user journeys – Javier Andrés Bargas-Avila (UX Director, Google)

What most companies get wrong about product discovery – Frances Ibe (SVP of Product, Tide)

How to estimate responsibly in product – Neil Vass (Engineering Manager, The Co-op, BBC)

Estimating Complexity – Liz Keogh on The Product Experience

The Product Experience

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