The secret guide to product growth – Daphne Tideman on The Product Experience "Product people - Product managers, product designers, UX designers, UX researchers, Business analysts, developers, makers & entrepreneurs April 04 2022 False Podcasts, product growth, Product/Market Fit, The Product Experience, Mind the Product Mind the Product Ltd 6631 Product Management 26.524

The secret guide to product growth – Daphne Tideman on The Product Experience

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What is the secret to exponential product growth? Daphne Tideman, Growth and Startup coach, joins us on the podcast this week. She discusses Product/market fit, the importance of business/channel models, and where companies go wrong when looking to grow their products.

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Featured Links: Follow Daphne on LinkedIn and Twitter | Daphne’s book ‘Growing Happy Clients’ | Read Daphne’s articles on Medium |  Reid Hoffman ‘Blitzscaling’ book | ‘Thriving In Hypergrowth’ – Cassidy Fein on The Product Experience

Episode transcript

Randy Silver: 

Lily, I think I’ve eaten too many chocolate mini eggs. I seem to have grown in my clothes no longer fit.

Lily Smith: 

Oh, dear. That’s so sad. Well, not sad do you eat many eggs but sad about the other stuff. But it’s also a great segue into today’s topic where we’re talking about how you need to redeem your product or business for growth, which means making sure you have the right fit.

Randy Silver: 

Oh, I see what you did there. You’re sneaky. Definitely tied. Minh is the author of growing happy clients, our processes and experiences for growing fortune 500 corporates and the fastest growing scale ups, which has a great title but a really long subtitle. And she also works as a growth consultant so she knows all about this stuff.

Lily Smith: 

She’s also got some pretty good success stories within e commerce and shares how growth and product should work to drive the best outcomes. So let’s get straight to the chat. The product experience is brought to you by mind the product.

Randy Silver: 

Every week, we talk to the best product people from around the globe about how we can improve our practice and build products that people love.

Lily Smith: 

Because it mind the product.com to catch up on past episodes and to discover an extensive library of great content and videos,

Randy Silver: 

browse for free, or become a mind that product member to unlock premium articles, unseen videos, AMA’s roundtables, discount store conferences around the world training opportunities.

Lily Smith: 

Mind the product also offers free product tank meetups in more than 200 cities. And there’s probably one near you. Hi, Daphne, thank you so much for joining us on the product experience podcast. It’s great to be talking to you today.

Daphne Tideman: 

Thanks for having me.

Lily Smith: 

So we’re going to cover off some topics around product market fit, and extras. But before we get stuck into that, it’d be great if you could give us a real quick intro into who you are and your background and what you’re up to these days. Sure. So

Daphne Tideman: 

I started in growth hacking when that was just a really weird time that no one actually knew what it was about seven, eight years ago, I grew frankly agency called rock base, I was the first employee and was a part of them for over five years consulting all types of companies, from startups to corporates from b2b to b2c, and learnt a lot while I was there, and then basically decided that I really wanted to see the brand side. So I rounded off that whole five year experience with also writing a book for other consultants and freelancers for just all the lessons that we’ve learned over that time, cook growing happy clients. And then I moved on to heights as head of growth. And I said, for just over a year and a half and come to help them Tenex their growth over that time intensive subscriber base. And again, just learned an incredible amount and also missed the consulting side. So ended up coaching other startups in how to grow. So head of growth and founders. And that’s actually what I’m doing. Now. I’m just taking some time off. Between this and my next adventure to just focus a little bit more on that coaching, and assist, take some things off the bucket list, and do some trips while we’re while it’s finally possible again, period.

Lily Smith: 

So yeah, amazing. Thank you. So we’re gonna get into the growth side as well, because I think a lot of their product, people will be interested to hear your take on it. But before we get into that, I know from my experience of working in startups, you know, one of the kind of key things to achieve before growth is product market fit. So how do you define product market fit? And then also, I know that you have kind of a couple of extra dimensions of this that you like to see working before growth can happen?

Daphne Tideman: 

Yeah, so I think the traditional definition of product market fit is that 40% would be very disappointed if they can no longer use your product or now. And I think like the cheeky kind of answer around it is just basically you kind of know when you have product market fit in the sense that there’s you found an audience that really loves your product that really enjoys it, where retention is strong, where you’re getting really good feedback. And so I think that’s really the foundation of any growth journey, because, you know, otherwise you end up with a leaky bucket, or it’s just a lot of work to try and get people in. And you’re right, I do have a few additions to that because over time, I started to see all these different companies that had really amazing products after an E commerce company companies and like they’d be getting amazing reviews at Trustpilot but they were still struggling to grow. And I tried to understand like okay, why is it so so hard to grow and I came across This model I’m not going to claim any credits for it was so rigid for reforge. It’s where they actually said, it’s not just about product market fit. It’s about product market channel model fit. And it was like everything clicked for me in that moment, because I realised like that, right? Because there’s so many people who just set their own model of what they think is interesting without actually looking like, hey, does this actually match your market? Does this match your product, but also, like, the channel is just doing the things that everyone’s doing Facebook and Google ads, because that’s what you should be doing? It’s that general feeling. That’s not what I’m giving us advice. And, and I was like, Well, if you actually look at it of all these different fits, that makes so much more sense, because then you can actually make sure that everything’s steady up for success versus just one element. And I think with the growing competition that we see, especially online, we really have to have that stronger foundation to grow from.

Lily Smith: 

So with product market fit, I think a lot of product managers will be familiar with what that means, you know, you’ve got the right product and the right solution, and then the right markets or the right audience. But what for those that aren’t familiar with the terms channel model, what what do those terms kind of mean, in this context?

Daphne Tideman: 

Yeah, so we start with model, because I think it’s almost like a kind of journey from like, okay, you’ve got a good match for problem solution, you’ve got a good match of your product market, then you start to look at what’s the right business model to make this a sustainable business. And then you start to look at which channels match all of that. And there’s a layer on top of that, about also getting all the language and a proposition, right. But to focus purely on that model side, I don’t mean, just pricing. I mean, what is the structure that you’re going to make a sustainable business from? So that can also be are we going to have subscription? Are we going to have freemium and a freemium model? Are we going to have different pricing plans, and a lot of companies just set this based on what they see their competitors doing? Or they’re just like, oh, this sounds like a good amount, because these are, what our costs are. But what your costs are, aren’t necessarily what your customer is willing to pay for it. So I had one business who literally, day before lunch was like, actually, it’s a lot more expensive to make that we thought, let’s just up the price by 25%. And so the model was really about like, Have you got the right business model that suits your audience. And it’s a really hard one to test around. But it’s just getting the right model and the right setup in terms of structuring plans or pricing of the products to match what the audience wants versus what everyone else is doing in the market. And then the channels is basically Okay, how are we going to reach our target audience? How are we going to get this out there, because let’s say you have a product where you have a maximum cost of acquisition of 20 pounds, you’re not going to use sale reps to sell that product, because there’s never going to be a sustainable model. Because your costs are gonna end up too high. Are you you know, you might not choose to use a channel like LinkedIn where the cost per clicks are very high, because your conversion rate needs to be super high. If you want to make that work at a 20 pound cost per acquisition. So the channels is really looking at like, Okay, where’s my target market? What matches actually the product that I’m offering? Like, what’s the logical place? That people would see it? Or that it that it’s suitable to explain that and show it? And what is your sort of right one based on my model?

Randy Silver: 

Definitely is this something that works consistently, in a consistent way for both b2b and b2c where there are fundamental differences based on who your target audiences.

Daphne Tideman: 

So I think it works for both of them. Because if you take the example of like the model, you’re going to learn and looking like which channels match the model, you’re going to be looking at very different channels for a b2b brand, because you have a way higher cost of acquisition. So the opportunities and the options, you can take their work a lot better. So I think this definitely is applicable to both. And it’s a really good way to think about it the only differences like Hey, is it product, is it service. And also, with the market side, you might have a, you know, a slightly different definition of, hey, who is my Market? And how do I go around testing it, because we’ve will be to be a push to working with business and individuals within a business. So you might have multiple people within the business that you need to find that right fit and that right set up to reach them.

Lily Smith: 

So you’ve worked with a lot of businesses, you know, before at that kind of pre growth or, you know, growth sort of stage. Where do you see businesses go wrong with the product market channel model fit? Is it just that they haven’t considered all four of those dimensions, or are they doing something else wrong?

Daphne Tideman: 

So I think what goes wrong is usually in the very beginning of it. I think a lot of businesses I’ve seen don’t do as much research as you’d hoped. And it’s usually like, we’ll be like trying to grow a business. And we’ll see like, Hey, this is harder than we expected. And let’s go back to the basis, because that’s always what I like to do, I like to go back to like, what is the customer saying, what I said, initial reason why we’re here. Because sometimes things get lost in that process of trying to grow, grow, grow that and a message gets rewritten. So often, you lose kind of that fundamental connection with that end consumer. So and then I find out that there’s very little to no research ritzville on and it’s usually like a company name gets created. And I used to do like this judging of startups at an event always, and it was, I’d always ask them, like, how did you come up with this idea? It’d be like, Oh, this is something I’d want. But this is something my friends have complained about. So there is like this initial, like, tiny, you know, user group, but beyond that they haven’t like done testing with with a broader audience. And I think, or they’ve done only testing around the product, and they’ve got that, right. But they’ve kind of forgotten not to test around a specific elements. And to really, like, go back to like, okay, where you know, where it’s actually our customer on a day to day, where can we actually best reach them versus Hey, everyone’s doing tick tock, now, maybe we should do ticked up, or SMS is up and coming. So we should do SMS. And say we’d like pricing like the example I gave just basing it on competitors. I think companies sometimes underestimate like, the, either the value of it or the impact that that research can have on these different elements. And I don’t mean with like pricing, just asking people, okay, what would you pay for this, but there’s like specific pricing models where you can ask different questions and get a different range, to start to understand what they value for certain features for certain areas and use that to figure out, Hey, what is actually a product that they’re willing to pay the amount that I want to create a model around. So I spend a lot of time on. So just trying to go back to those basics and make research really easy, because I think that’s the other reason why it just gets forgotten as startup is like, go go go gotta hit our targets and keeps getting more and more more than often will get seen as like a channel issue is actually just this whole model being out of balance. So just try to make it so really easy to get back to the to that beat at that research again, and just show how simple it is. Because I think, yeah, that’s kind of the foundations where it always goes wrong. And you want to make research a core of that the startup again,

Randy Silver: 

when do you do the research? Is it a one time thing that you do at an early stage? Or is it a continual reframing? And, you know, is it a scheduled is it ad hoc,

Daphne Tideman: 

continuous process. So I think that when research is ad hoc, or is a one off thing, it kind of gets forgotten. And I know that product, people talk a lot about like product intuition. And maybe this is like even a sale or the group version of this growth intuition. But I think you have to constantly be close to that customer. So I try to schedule it to make sure it doesn’t get forgotten and see if they’re having like an automatic part of a flow, where we ask people if they want to schedule one and then having a calendar link, and then even narrowing it down if we’ve got too many responses. So figuring out how to improve that if we haven’t gotten enough, having like regular going through research, and also just making it accessible to all. So when I was at height, I actually started when I first joined in our own internal podcast, which was called executive function, which was a little brain job as a brain care company, and where we just recorded these customer interviews that we were doing on every month, and just release episodes every week or two, to just share the actual Yeah, the what the customer is exactly saying with the whole team to make sure that everyone’s getting that feeling for what does the customer want and need?

Lily Smith: 

And so in that research, are you checking? Are you kind of continuously checking for these different fits as well? Or?

Daphne Tideman: 

So it depends on what phase were like? I don’t I think Product Market Fit can shift over time for sure. We have in the Netherlands for example, where I’m urging from a competitor of Facebook, who was huge back in the day hives, and everyone in Netherlands was on and I lived abroad. So whenever I came back I was like, should I get this finding or not? But then Facebook came along and offered a way better solution in a way better setup and a more international option as as people still want a more international context. And they just went from having product market fit and everyone using it on a daily basis to just yet ending. And so I do think it can change over time but I don’t think you need to constantly be second guessing it and you know, double checking out I think it’s more like we’re product market fit. If a company is doing like a product market fit survey I’ll either say have it continuously sent out and just monitor how it’s changing over time. And if you’re seeing sudden, like drops, or increases to just work out what’s going on, we’ll just do it once every three months, as like a check to see, hey, how’s this going? And like the same with other things like, a model is probably going to stay similar unless there’s really big shifts. So for example, now we see all these ecommerce companies going to subscriptions, because that is great for investors, they love it in terms of what it does for the value of the company. But I personally believe that within a few years time, that model isn’t going to be as effective as it was before, because people are getting subscription fatigue eventually, or we’re going to have to change how we do subscriptions to give the customer more control. Because of this fear of like, how do I keep track of all the subscriptions I’ve got? How do I stay in control and have still that flexibility? That’s also desire. So I think just like that can impact it, but it you don’t need to be looking every single day or every single month, if you have got that basis, right?

Randy Silver: 

Someone just has to build a subscription aggregator that you subscribe to to grow your subscription. I’m sorry,

Unknown: 

that would be perfect. I constantly like suddenly realised, oh, yeah, I subscribed. Oh, no, I subscribe to that. Oh, God, I sent out like, every three months, I just have a clean up. And I’m like, on the one hand, so proud of myself like, Oh, I’ve saved money. Cancel that. Cancel that. And I’m like, yep. And I’m like, how do they let it get this far?

Randy Silver: 

I think we’ve all been there. Yeah. So how does this work with the product team then? So you’re you’re learning about what the the attitudes are. But how do you take that back to the product team to influence their roadmap? Are you? Well, I’m not even sure where you would start?

Daphne Tideman: 

Yeah, so I think growth has the last like few years gotten a bit of like, been upgraded a bit too much as marketing. And I actually wrote a piece about this. And I think originally, seven years ago, like or even noted, oh, my gosh, was 10 years ago, I think it was 2012. And two Tran Ranbir then wrote an article where he said grofers, the new VP of marketing, and you started SEO. So like more and more brands thinking, hey, this is a replacement of marketing and upgrading growth to marketing. But as we look at that model, like we see that products is an absolutely huge part of that. And while product is of the part of the official definition of marketing with the four P’s, we see more and more organisations having a separate product team. And as a result, I think that growth and product is a really big open up. And they have to work closely together on this. So it shouldn’t be like, hey, the growth team is doing all this research or the product teams, I think together, they’re looking at like, how can we get these foundations strong. And that could be that if it’s a very product lead growth organisation, as we’re seeing more and more SAS organisations, that growth sits on the product. But it may also be that you have a separate growth team that combines all the different elements, so has someone from marketing, so a developer designer, a product manager, and it’s just working together with them on these kinds of challenges and looking together like, Hey, how can we use the product to get these growth opportunities or build products in a way that matches this? And it also really depends and that’s why I personally do like growth being in a lot of cases a separate entity and see where you need to focus because sometimes it is just a marketing thing. And it is okay, we haven’t got the language right, or we haven’t found the right channels, and we need to be testing this. But in other times I think like product, don’t get some that estimated if the impact of it and we just assume we can’t change anything about the product. So even like, you know, the website experience when actually, that’s when a lot of the best growth opportunities are and it just get overlooked. So, yeah, I think they’re very closely aligned and need to work together to on these challenges.

Randy Silver: 

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Lily Smith: 

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Lily Smith: 

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Randy Silver: 

The negative perspective on all this is that growth is done as something well. I mean, it’s called growth hacking. So it sounds like it’s done in a half assed way and like it’s going to create operational debt. So how do you do it that way? In a way, it doesn’t necessarily have to create debt that you pay back? Or is there a way of doing it? So that it scales? It scales?

Daphne Tideman: 

Yes. So I used to avoid the word growth hacking because I didn’t like the connotation it had. And I started, say, data driven marketing and and I realised the risk of equating growth to marketing. Because everything just becomes a channel problem versus looking at the fundamentals. And then I went back to growth hacking or just growth consulting, for lack of a better word. So I know what you mean, with the cavitation

Randy Silver: 

marketing purchase, having trouble describing the right word to use a metric. Hey, they all have this problem.

Daphne Tideman: 

Yeah. So I, I would say like, there’s a time for chaos. And there’s a time not for chaos. So there’s a book called Blitzscaling, which talks about, you know, these fast momentum moments in when you’re growing and that you do accept sudden chaos in it. But I’ve also seen the opposite. Be true that if there’s too much chaos, there’s no foundations to go quickly, at a certain point. So I think it’s, it’s, it’s looking at, like, hey, is this something is that we don’t know, or we need to move fast, accepting that chaos. But I think also we need to look at like, how can we build the assets for success. So for example, I think a really good example of this is attribution. You know, in the beginning, you’re going to accept a slightly chaos, messy, potentially even manual at time process, because you don’t have enough customers to justify a really fancy attribution setup. But at a certain point, that’s going to hold you back and the same like with your website, like, you know, if you don’t have the flexibility, in the beginning, it might be fine, where you’re making small changes. But as you want to test more and more, you need to get those foundations. So I think growth is not about these quick hacks, if anything, I think the biggest impact is also is often these fundamental, risky tests. And that it’s, it’s looking at, like, hey, is this moment where we need to go really fast? This is the moment where we need to accept that things are breaking as we’re pushing ourselves to reach a certain goal get there faster than someone else? Or is this a time where our lack of infrastructure or lack of processes is holding us back? And we might need to focus on building those foundations step by step to allow us to actually go fast again, in the future?

Lily Smith: 

So what’s kind of, you’ve had lots of experience working in E commerce, and with E commerce businesses, what’s kind of special or different about working in E commerce compared to like a b2b business or, or something like that? How, how do ecommerce professionals need to think about their products and growth? That’s slightly different, because the way that I see it, it’s like, someone needs to visit our website and buy something. Like, fundamentally, it’s just the same for everyone. So I find it really interesting to think about, like how you differentiate in that journey? Yeah.

Daphne Tideman: 

Yeah. So firstly, I was there, I absolutely love it, you commerce. I’ve done b2b too, as a venture, the beginning, but I find that you’re sometimes a bit, like even less close to the end customer, or there’s so many layers and complexity to it, that it’s usually forget the human behind it. And what I love with ecommerce says that, you know, very tangible of like, hey, they’re getting this physical product, and now they’re going to be actually using receiving something that we’re creating. And that’s going to bring joy to them. So I love that close connection. I think you’re right, like there’s more and more competitors. And then in its essence, it’s like, Hey, okay, we just need to basically help them fight. But I think like, that makes it even more and more important. And to be honest, I think this is for b2b too. So maybe it’s not a difference, but it is, I think exceptionally important for E commerce nowadays is the brand element. Like I used to be like, very data driven, like I was like, brand, don’t don’t don’t think that’s for me, that side of it. And I’ve really grown to, like realise how crucial it is, because that’s your differentiators. Like, you don’t have network effects like you do have a marketplace. You know, economies of scale is an advantage for some brands. That might not be where you want to go with it. So your your moat so you’re creating as often the brand. And I think that for ecommerce, it’s even more important to create a kind of human experience to gain trust that you’re not just actually buying dropship products for For 10 times what the actual value is that you’re building trust and feel a connection with it. And just making it really easy. It’s an easy, effortless experience, and a really enjoyable experience. And I think that’s where brands can also differentiate in in all of that, I think one of the other differences to the b2b or some SAS products is that certain growth loops can be harder to make work. We all want to go viral, everyone thinks with growth hacking, and it’s, you know, it’s like, how do we basically grip virality? How do we get a referral new, and I’ve seen brands have good successes. I’m not saying it’s not possible with us ecommerce brands having like discounts or rewards. But I think having really that exponential referral loop, like the companies that Dropbox, you know, Hotmail, these classic growth examples, grew up is a bit harder, you do have examples, but it requires a lot of creativity and differentiation. So I love the example of Harry’s with a razor, the razor brand, where they did pre launch this whole building over the email list, really offering like great rewards having funny content around it, building that relationship. There, you know, one of the few examples I can think of, of an E commerce brand going viral. And I think because of that, like it’s more and more about, like, how do you actually create something that people love and other realities, then more word of mouth, which is hard to control, but can be just as impactful. So I always think of the example of deciem, who does the brand, the ordinary, I have never had any referral benefits for them, whatsoever, but I have recommended them to at least 10 Different people send an extra on the website, because I just love their products, like I think they’ve gotten it. So right, in like a very expensive, very crowded niche of skincare. And that that gives them that sense of virality. But those kinds of loops. In my opinion, often more if a product base, or really require big creativity versus, you know, products where you know, Slack or something where it’s like, okay, we can build something where you’re inviting other people you’re getting extra value to get it on, that’s far easier. It’s not necessarily going viral, but it isn’t much easier referral loop to build.

Randy Silver: 

So you talked about a couple of examples there they were pre launch and some that were post launch. Winch, should you actually hire somebody to focus on growth? Is that at the very beginning, do or when?

Daphne Tideman: 

Yeah, so I think most companies try to hire for growth too soon. I’ve noticed and and I don’t know, it might have been a trend before that. But I probably became, you know, aware of it, when I became a head of growth was that suddenly everyone was looking for a head of growth? It was like it was like the hot new idea. Every startup needs their head of growth. I know, I wrote a serious about this recently, because I realised, from talking to multiple people are head of gross ag companies that a lot of them were really struggling to be successful. And it wasn’t because they were necessarily, you know, not good at the job, but because they’ve been hired too early. And so I think that’s the main thing is just like, you know, if you don’t have product market fit yet, do you need someone to grip it? Like, do you need to hire a growth manager, I would, I would say you need a product tire, or you need to work with the founders or with a validation expert to really get that, right, because let’s say you fundamentally need to change your products. And it is a physical product, versus a digital one. That’s a long journey that takes a lot of time. And you also probably don’t have like the budget sort of room yet to test and explore these areas. And then even if you do have that product market fit, if you don’t know which channels you’re going to be focusing on, let’s say you’ve got the product market fit, you’ve worked out your business model, you know, there might be a few changes with the basis looks good, then you’re working out your channels, let’s say you hire a growth manager that’s very experienced in SEO and in paid ads, they’re going to see that most likely as the solution, they’re going to try to look holistically. But that’s where they know. And that’s where they have the expertise. So it’s natural that you know, you look at things like from that kind of perspective. And so I think that that’s the second part where where they often get hired too early, it’s like, you have no idea what channels are the right ones for you yet, so you don’t know who to actually hire. So in those cases, I think it can be better to do have an interim head of growth, or to have a consultant or like multiple people help you out before you hire that head of growth because you don’t know what their skill sets are. Or you need to go for a more well rounded head of growth and accent that you’re going to have to hire certain specialists. And then the other thing I think all growth manager, whatever you want to call it a role because just like growth hacker there’s a million names for these things. The other thing I think that so so is like a lot of again, I think a lot of people don’t realise it so that I think when you hire a growth manager Uh, you do need to also have someone on the brand side or someone responsible for the brand side. Because often people think like, oh, okay, if I call it growth, I can just click marketing, sick brand sick product, and you hired as head of everything, but no one is amazing or all these different elements and especially brand new growth are such different skill sets. So I think the when is also dependent on like, do have someone who would take that part of it is assuming that that part is important for you that you do want to be building a brand, which as we talked about is a key element for a lot of E commerce companies. Okay, who is actually going to take that piece over? And how are you going to separate that role, because I’ve met very few people who are very good at brand and growth and are able to wear both those hats. But normally, that’s not the case, they’re very different skill sets.

Lily Smith: 

I think it’s that brand kind of aspect is really interesting, because as product managers, we tend to, you know, really focus on the customer experience. And that means like, you know, the flows and the journeys, and the the feature set and stuff like that is not always the copywriting and the imagery and, and those kind of nice little things that bring the brand to life. So yeah, it’s really that that point, it’s really interesting. But one of the other things that I have seen one of the other functions that I’ve seen a lot in E commerce businesses, is that CRO function. Yeah, the conversion rate optimisation. What’s your kind of experience with that function and how it works with growth and product?

Daphne Tideman: 

Yes, I think there’s a huge overlap. So just to define it, like I think a lot of people think of conversion rate optimization as the very literal definition of it. optimising the conversion rate. To be honest, like sera, sera, specialists have been trying to change the whole name and definition of it, whenever I go to a conference a lot of because they realise that the floor and the naming of it. And, but for me, it’s really about that focus of that what you were talking about the focus of that whole customer journey and optimising it to get to bring in new customers to, you know, bring value, I think is the most important word, versus like a very two dimensional focus on conversion rate that’s quite volatile. And it’s focused on just one element of it. And I think that zero is hugely overlapping growth. That’s why we go to zero conferences. So often, but I think it’s usually if a part of the growth for the product team. And it’s actually one of the biggest high impact areas because the learnings that it’s like one of the easiest to measure areas, when when you’re testing things, especially if you have enough volume, if you don’t have enough volume, you need to get creative and do things and otherwise. But surely you have enough traffic to test, you can start to learn fundamental things about your business, that you can apply in all different areas. So I think it’s really the growth or product needs to lead it. But also make sure that that gets spread to the rest of the organisation because like, let’s say, reviews work really well for you. And you’re noticing that people are really resonating with certain types of reviews, or formats of it. How could you integrate that into email on to ads, and suddenly, you know that optimization on the site can have a way bigger impact across the whole customer journey, if you if you share it with the marketing team, if you share it with brand, they can start to learn like okay, how can we use this to help us further?

Lily Smith: 

Amazing Defty it’s been so good talking to you and learning all about this. Thank you so much for joining us today. We’ve sadly run out of time. But yeah, it’s been great. Thank you and I know that you’ve got a blog with loads of resources so we will point people in that direction as well for more content from me.

Daphne Tideman: 

Thanks so much for having me.

Lily Smith: 

The product experience is the first and the best podcast from mine the product. Our hosts are me, Lily Smith,

Randy Silver: 

and me Randy silver.

Lily Smith: 

Louron Pratt is our producer and Luke Smith is our editor.

Randy Silver: 

Our theme music is from humbard baseband power. That’s P AU. Thanks to Arnie killer who curates both product tank and MTP engage in Hamburg and who also plays bass in the band for letting us use their music. You can connect with your local product community via product tank, regular free meetups in over 200 cities worldwide.

Lily Smith: 

If there’s not one near you, maybe you should think about starting one. To find out more go to mind the product.com forward slash product Thank you

What is the secret to exponential product growth? Daphne Tideman, Growth and Startup coach, joins us on the podcast this week. She discusses Product/market fit, the importance of business/channel models, and where companies go wrong when looking to grow their products. Listener of The Product Experience? We need your help! Fill out this short survey to help us improve the overall experience of our community-led podcast. 
Featured Links: Follow Daphne on LinkedIn and Twitter | Daphne's book 'Growing Happy Clients' | Read Daphne's articles on Medium |  Reid Hoffman 'Blitzscaling' book | 'Thriving In Hypergrowth' - Cassidy Fein on The Product Experience

Episode transcript

Randy Silver:  Lily, I think I've eaten too many chocolate mini eggs. I seem to have grown in my clothes no longer fit. Lily Smith:  Oh, dear. That's so sad. Well, not sad do you eat many eggs but sad about the other stuff. But it's also a great segue into today's topic where we're talking about how you need to redeem your product or business for growth, which means making sure you have the right fit. Randy Silver:  Oh, I see what you did there. You're sneaky. Definitely tied. Minh is the author of growing happy clients, our processes and experiences for growing fortune 500 corporates and the fastest growing scale ups, which has a great title but a really long subtitle. And she also works as a growth consultant so she knows all about this stuff. Lily Smith:  She's also got some pretty good success stories within e commerce and shares how growth and product should work to drive the best outcomes. So let's get straight to the chat. The product experience is brought to you by mind the product. Randy Silver:  Every week, we talk to the best product people from around the globe about how we can improve our practice and build products that people love. Lily Smith:  Because it mind the product.com to catch up on past episodes and to discover an extensive library of great content and videos, Randy Silver:  browse for free, or become a mind that product member to unlock premium articles, unseen videos, AMA's roundtables, discount store conferences around the world training opportunities. Lily Smith:  Mind the product also offers free product tank meetups in more than 200 cities. And there's probably one near you. Hi, Daphne, thank you so much for joining us on the product experience podcast. It's great to be talking to you today. Daphne Tideman:  Thanks for having me. Lily Smith:  So we're going to cover off some topics around product market fit, and extras. But before we get stuck into that, it'd be great if you could give us a real quick intro into who you are and your background and what you're up to these days. Sure. So Daphne Tideman:  I started in growth hacking when that was just a really weird time that no one actually knew what it was about seven, eight years ago, I grew frankly agency called rock base, I was the first employee and was a part of them for over five years consulting all types of companies, from startups to corporates from b2b to b2c, and learnt a lot while I was there, and then basically decided that I really wanted to see the brand side. So I rounded off that whole five year experience with also writing a book for other consultants and freelancers for just all the lessons that we've learned over that time, cook growing happy clients. And then I moved on to heights as head of growth. And I said, for just over a year and a half and come to help them Tenex their growth over that time intensive subscriber base. And again, just learned an incredible amount and also missed the consulting side. So ended up coaching other startups in how to grow. So head of growth and founders. And that's actually what I'm doing. Now. I'm just taking some time off. Between this and my next adventure to just focus a little bit more on that coaching, and assist, take some things off the bucket list, and do some trips while we're while it's finally possible again, period. Lily Smith:  So yeah, amazing. Thank you. So we're gonna get into the growth side as well, because I think a lot of their product, people will be interested to hear your take on it. But before we get into that, I know from my experience of working in startups, you know, one of the kind of key things to achieve before growth is product market fit. So how do you define product market fit? And then also, I know that you have kind of a couple of extra dimensions of this that you like to see working before growth can happen? Daphne Tideman:  Yeah, so I think the traditional definition of product market fit is that 40% would be very disappointed if they can no longer use your product or now. And I think like the cheeky kind of answer around it is just basically you kind of know when you have product market fit in the sense that there's you found an audience that really loves your product that really enjoys it, where retention is strong, where you're getting really good feedback. And so I think that's really the foundation of any growth journey, because, you know, otherwise you end up with a leaky bucket, or it's just a lot of work to try and get people in. And you're right, I do have a few additions to that because over time, I started to see all these different companies that had really amazing products after an E commerce company companies and like they'd be getting amazing reviews at Trustpilot but they were still struggling to grow. And I tried to understand like okay, why is it so so hard to grow and I came across This model I'm not going to claim any credits for it was so rigid for reforge. It's where they actually said, it's not just about product market fit. It's about product market channel model fit. And it was like everything clicked for me in that moment, because I realised like that, right? Because there's so many people who just set their own model of what they think is interesting without actually looking like, hey, does this actually match your market? Does this match your product, but also, like, the channel is just doing the things that everyone's doing Facebook and Google ads, because that's what you should be doing? It's that general feeling. That's not what I'm giving us advice. And, and I was like, Well, if you actually look at it of all these different fits, that makes so much more sense, because then you can actually make sure that everything's steady up for success versus just one element. And I think with the growing competition that we see, especially online, we really have to have that stronger foundation to grow from. Lily Smith:  So with product market fit, I think a lot of product managers will be familiar with what that means, you know, you've got the right product and the right solution, and then the right markets or the right audience. But what for those that aren't familiar with the terms channel model, what what do those terms kind of mean, in this context? Daphne Tideman:  Yeah, so we start with model, because I think it's almost like a kind of journey from like, okay, you've got a good match for problem solution, you've got a good match of your product market, then you start to look at what's the right business model to make this a sustainable business. And then you start to look at which channels match all of that. And there's a layer on top of that, about also getting all the language and a proposition, right. But to focus purely on that model side, I don't mean, just pricing. I mean, what is the structure that you're going to make a sustainable business from? So that can also be are we going to have subscription? Are we going to have freemium and a freemium model? Are we going to have different pricing plans, and a lot of companies just set this based on what they see their competitors doing? Or they're just like, oh, this sounds like a good amount, because these are, what our costs are. But what your costs are, aren't necessarily what your customer is willing to pay for it. So I had one business who literally, day before lunch was like, actually, it's a lot more expensive to make that we thought, let's just up the price by 25%. And so the model was really about like, Have you got the right business model that suits your audience. And it's a really hard one to test around. But it's just getting the right model and the right setup in terms of structuring plans or pricing of the products to match what the audience wants versus what everyone else is doing in the market. And then the channels is basically Okay, how are we going to reach our target audience? How are we going to get this out there, because let's say you have a product where you have a maximum cost of acquisition of 20 pounds, you're not going to use sale reps to sell that product, because there's never going to be a sustainable model. Because your costs are gonna end up too high. Are you you know, you might not choose to use a channel like LinkedIn where the cost per clicks are very high, because your conversion rate needs to be super high. If you want to make that work at a 20 pound cost per acquisition. So the channels is really looking at like, Okay, where's my target market? What matches actually the product that I'm offering? Like, what's the logical place? That people would see it? Or that it that it's suitable to explain that and show it? And what is your sort of right one based on my model? Randy Silver:  Definitely is this something that works consistently, in a consistent way for both b2b and b2c where there are fundamental differences based on who your target audiences. Daphne Tideman:  So I think it works for both of them. Because if you take the example of like the model, you're going to learn and looking like which channels match the model, you're going to be looking at very different channels for a b2b brand, because you have a way higher cost of acquisition. So the opportunities and the options, you can take their work a lot better. So I think this definitely is applicable to both. And it's a really good way to think about it the only differences like Hey, is it product, is it service. And also, with the market side, you might have a, you know, a slightly different definition of, hey, who is my Market? And how do I go around testing it, because we've will be to be a push to working with business and individuals within a business. So you might have multiple people within the business that you need to find that right fit and that right set up to reach them. Lily Smith:  So you've worked with a lot of businesses, you know, before at that kind of pre growth or, you know, growth sort of stage. Where do you see businesses go wrong with the product market channel model fit? Is it just that they haven't considered all four of those dimensions, or are they doing something else wrong? Daphne Tideman:  So I think what goes wrong is usually in the very beginning of it. I think a lot of businesses I've seen don't do as much research as you'd hoped. And it's usually like, we'll be like trying to grow a business. And we'll see like, Hey, this is harder than we expected. And let's go back to the basis, because that's always what I like to do, I like to go back to like, what is the customer saying, what I said, initial reason why we're here. Because sometimes things get lost in that process of trying to grow, grow, grow that and a message gets rewritten. So often, you lose kind of that fundamental connection with that end consumer. So and then I find out that there's very little to no research ritzville on and it's usually like a company name gets created. And I used to do like this judging of startups at an event always, and it was, I'd always ask them, like, how did you come up with this idea? It'd be like, Oh, this is something I'd want. But this is something my friends have complained about. So there is like this initial, like, tiny, you know, user group, but beyond that they haven't like done testing with with a broader audience. And I think, or they've done only testing around the product, and they've got that, right. But they've kind of forgotten not to test around a specific elements. And to really, like, go back to like, okay, where you know, where it's actually our customer on a day to day, where can we actually best reach them versus Hey, everyone's doing tick tock, now, maybe we should do ticked up, or SMS is up and coming. So we should do SMS. And say we'd like pricing like the example I gave just basing it on competitors. I think companies sometimes underestimate like, the, either the value of it or the impact that that research can have on these different elements. And I don't mean with like pricing, just asking people, okay, what would you pay for this, but there's like specific pricing models where you can ask different questions and get a different range, to start to understand what they value for certain features for certain areas and use that to figure out, Hey, what is actually a product that they're willing to pay the amount that I want to create a model around. So I spend a lot of time on. So just trying to go back to those basics and make research really easy, because I think that's the other reason why it just gets forgotten as startup is like, go go go gotta hit our targets and keeps getting more and more more than often will get seen as like a channel issue is actually just this whole model being out of balance. So just try to make it so really easy to get back to the to that beat at that research again, and just show how simple it is. Because I think, yeah, that's kind of the foundations where it always goes wrong. And you want to make research a core of that the startup again, Randy Silver:  when do you do the research? Is it a one time thing that you do at an early stage? Or is it a continual reframing? And, you know, is it a scheduled is it ad hoc, Daphne Tideman:  continuous process. So I think that when research is ad hoc, or is a one off thing, it kind of gets forgotten. And I know that product, people talk a lot about like product intuition. And maybe this is like even a sale or the group version of this growth intuition. But I think you have to constantly be close to that customer. So I try to schedule it to make sure it doesn't get forgotten and see if they're having like an automatic part of a flow, where we ask people if they want to schedule one and then having a calendar link, and then even narrowing it down if we've got too many responses. So figuring out how to improve that if we haven't gotten enough, having like regular going through research, and also just making it accessible to all. So when I was at height, I actually started when I first joined in our own internal podcast, which was called executive function, which was a little brain job as a brain care company, and where we just recorded these customer interviews that we were doing on every month, and just release episodes every week or two, to just share the actual Yeah, the what the customer is exactly saying with the whole team to make sure that everyone's getting that feeling for what does the customer want and need? Lily Smith:  And so in that research, are you checking? Are you kind of continuously checking for these different fits as well? Or? Daphne Tideman:  So it depends on what phase were like? I don't I think Product Market Fit can shift over time for sure. We have in the Netherlands for example, where I'm urging from a competitor of Facebook, who was huge back in the day hives, and everyone in Netherlands was on and I lived abroad. So whenever I came back I was like, should I get this finding or not? But then Facebook came along and offered a way better solution in a way better setup and a more international option as as people still want a more international context. And they just went from having product market fit and everyone using it on a daily basis to just yet ending. And so I do think it can change over time but I don't think you need to constantly be second guessing it and you know, double checking out I think it's more like we're product market fit. If a company is doing like a product market fit survey I'll either say have it continuously sent out and just monitor how it's changing over time. And if you're seeing sudden, like drops, or increases to just work out what's going on, we'll just do it once every three months, as like a check to see, hey, how's this going? And like the same with other things like, a model is probably going to stay similar unless there's really big shifts. So for example, now we see all these ecommerce companies going to subscriptions, because that is great for investors, they love it in terms of what it does for the value of the company. But I personally believe that within a few years time, that model isn't going to be as effective as it was before, because people are getting subscription fatigue eventually, or we're going to have to change how we do subscriptions to give the customer more control. Because of this fear of like, how do I keep track of all the subscriptions I've got? How do I stay in control and have still that flexibility? That's also desire. So I think just like that can impact it, but it you don't need to be looking every single day or every single month, if you have got that basis, right? Randy Silver:  Someone just has to build a subscription aggregator that you subscribe to to grow your subscription. I'm sorry, Unknown:  that would be perfect. I constantly like suddenly realised, oh, yeah, I subscribed. Oh, no, I subscribe to that. Oh, God, I sent out like, every three months, I just have a clean up. And I'm like, on the one hand, so proud of myself like, Oh, I've saved money. Cancel that. Cancel that. And I'm like, yep. And I'm like, how do they let it get this far? Randy Silver:  I think we've all been there. Yeah. So how does this work with the product team then? So you're you're learning about what the the attitudes are. But how do you take that back to the product team to influence their roadmap? Are you? Well, I'm not even sure where you would start? Daphne Tideman:  Yeah, so I think growth has the last like few years gotten a bit of like, been upgraded a bit too much as marketing. And I actually wrote a piece about this. And I think originally, seven years ago, like or even noted, oh, my gosh, was 10 years ago, I think it was 2012. And two Tran Ranbir then wrote an article where he said grofers, the new VP of marketing, and you started SEO. So like more and more brands thinking, hey, this is a replacement of marketing and upgrading growth to marketing. But as we look at that model, like we see that products is an absolutely huge part of that. And while product is of the part of the official definition of marketing with the four P's, we see more and more organisations having a separate product team. And as a result, I think that growth and product is a really big open up. And they have to work closely together on this. So it shouldn't be like, hey, the growth team is doing all this research or the product teams, I think together, they're looking at like, how can we get these foundations strong. And that could be that if it's a very product lead growth organisation, as we're seeing more and more SAS organisations, that growth sits on the product. But it may also be that you have a separate growth team that combines all the different elements, so has someone from marketing, so a developer designer, a product manager, and it's just working together with them on these kinds of challenges and looking together like, Hey, how can we use the product to get these growth opportunities or build products in a way that matches this? And it also really depends and that's why I personally do like growth being in a lot of cases a separate entity and see where you need to focus because sometimes it is just a marketing thing. And it is okay, we haven't got the language right, or we haven't found the right channels, and we need to be testing this. But in other times I think like product, don't get some that estimated if the impact of it and we just assume we can't change anything about the product. So even like, you know, the website experience when actually, that's when a lot of the best growth opportunities are and it just get overlooked. So, yeah, I think they're very closely aligned and need to work together to on these challenges. Randy Silver:  If 2022 is the year you're looking to advance your career, expand your network, get inspired, and bring the best products to market. Then join mind the product for their next conference this May. Lily Smith:  At MTB con San Francisco plus Americas, you'll soak up invaluable insights from an epic lineup of the best in product covering a range of topics that will challenge and inspire you to step up as a product manager. Randy Silver:  You've got the option to go fully digital for both days, or get the best of both worlds with a hybrid ticket. Digital on day one and in person at the SF jazz in San Francisco on day two. I was at the most recent edition of this event in London last year and it was just awesome. Lily Smith:  Get tickets now at mine the product.com. Randy Silver:  The negative perspective on all this is that growth is done as something well. I mean, it's called growth hacking. So it sounds like it's done in a half assed way and like it's going to create operational debt. So how do you do it that way? In a way, it doesn't necessarily have to create debt that you pay back? Or is there a way of doing it? So that it scales? It scales? Daphne Tideman:  Yes. So I used to avoid the word growth hacking because I didn't like the connotation it had. And I started, say, data driven marketing and and I realised the risk of equating growth to marketing. Because everything just becomes a channel problem versus looking at the fundamentals. And then I went back to growth hacking or just growth consulting, for lack of a better word. So I know what you mean, with the cavitation Randy Silver:  marketing purchase, having trouble describing the right word to use a metric. Hey, they all have this problem. Daphne Tideman:  Yeah. So I, I would say like, there's a time for chaos. And there's a time not for chaos. So there's a book called Blitzscaling, which talks about, you know, these fast momentum moments in when you're growing and that you do accept sudden chaos in it. But I've also seen the opposite. Be true that if there's too much chaos, there's no foundations to go quickly, at a certain point. So I think it's, it's, it's looking at, like, hey, is this something is that we don't know, or we need to move fast, accepting that chaos. But I think also we need to look at like, how can we build the assets for success. So for example, I think a really good example of this is attribution. You know, in the beginning, you're going to accept a slightly chaos, messy, potentially even manual at time process, because you don't have enough customers to justify a really fancy attribution setup. But at a certain point, that's going to hold you back and the same like with your website, like, you know, if you don't have the flexibility, in the beginning, it might be fine, where you're making small changes. But as you want to test more and more, you need to get those foundations. So I think growth is not about these quick hacks, if anything, I think the biggest impact is also is often these fundamental, risky tests. And that it's, it's looking at, like, hey, is this moment where we need to go really fast? This is the moment where we need to accept that things are breaking as we're pushing ourselves to reach a certain goal get there faster than someone else? Or is this a time where our lack of infrastructure or lack of processes is holding us back? And we might need to focus on building those foundations step by step to allow us to actually go fast again, in the future? Lily Smith:  So what's kind of, you've had lots of experience working in E commerce, and with E commerce businesses, what's kind of special or different about working in E commerce compared to like a b2b business or, or something like that? How, how do ecommerce professionals need to think about their products and growth? That's slightly different, because the way that I see it, it's like, someone needs to visit our website and buy something. Like, fundamentally, it's just the same for everyone. So I find it really interesting to think about, like how you differentiate in that journey? Yeah. Daphne Tideman:  Yeah. So firstly, I was there, I absolutely love it, you commerce. I've done b2b too, as a venture, the beginning, but I find that you're sometimes a bit, like even less close to the end customer, or there's so many layers and complexity to it, that it's usually forget the human behind it. And what I love with ecommerce says that, you know, very tangible of like, hey, they're getting this physical product, and now they're going to be actually using receiving something that we're creating. And that's going to bring joy to them. So I love that close connection. I think you're right, like there's more and more competitors. And then in its essence, it's like, Hey, okay, we just need to basically help them fight. But I think like, that makes it even more and more important. And to be honest, I think this is for b2b too. So maybe it's not a difference, but it is, I think exceptionally important for E commerce nowadays is the brand element. Like I used to be like, very data driven, like I was like, brand, don't don't don't think that's for me, that side of it. And I've really grown to, like realise how crucial it is, because that's your differentiators. Like, you don't have network effects like you do have a marketplace. You know, economies of scale is an advantage for some brands. That might not be where you want to go with it. So your your moat so you're creating as often the brand. And I think that for ecommerce, it's even more important to create a kind of human experience to gain trust that you're not just actually buying dropship products for For 10 times what the actual value is that you're building trust and feel a connection with it. And just making it really easy. It's an easy, effortless experience, and a really enjoyable experience. And I think that's where brands can also differentiate in in all of that, I think one of the other differences to the b2b or some SAS products is that certain growth loops can be harder to make work. We all want to go viral, everyone thinks with growth hacking, and it's, you know, it's like, how do we basically grip virality? How do we get a referral new, and I've seen brands have good successes. I'm not saying it's not possible with us ecommerce brands having like discounts or rewards. But I think having really that exponential referral loop, like the companies that Dropbox, you know, Hotmail, these classic growth examples, grew up is a bit harder, you do have examples, but it requires a lot of creativity and differentiation. So I love the example of Harry's with a razor, the razor brand, where they did pre launch this whole building over the email list, really offering like great rewards having funny content around it, building that relationship. There, you know, one of the few examples I can think of, of an E commerce brand going viral. And I think because of that, like it's more and more about, like, how do you actually create something that people love and other realities, then more word of mouth, which is hard to control, but can be just as impactful. So I always think of the example of deciem, who does the brand, the ordinary, I have never had any referral benefits for them, whatsoever, but I have recommended them to at least 10 Different people send an extra on the website, because I just love their products, like I think they've gotten it. So right, in like a very expensive, very crowded niche of skincare. And that that gives them that sense of virality. But those kinds of loops. In my opinion, often more if a product base, or really require big creativity versus, you know, products where you know, Slack or something where it's like, okay, we can build something where you're inviting other people you're getting extra value to get it on, that's far easier. It's not necessarily going viral, but it isn't much easier referral loop to build. Randy Silver:  So you talked about a couple of examples there they were pre launch and some that were post launch. Winch, should you actually hire somebody to focus on growth? Is that at the very beginning, do or when? Daphne Tideman:  Yeah, so I think most companies try to hire for growth too soon. I've noticed and and I don't know, it might have been a trend before that. But I probably became, you know, aware of it, when I became a head of growth was that suddenly everyone was looking for a head of growth? It was like it was like the hot new idea. Every startup needs their head of growth. I know, I wrote a serious about this recently, because I realised, from talking to multiple people are head of gross ag companies that a lot of them were really struggling to be successful. And it wasn't because they were necessarily, you know, not good at the job, but because they've been hired too early. And so I think that's the main thing is just like, you know, if you don't have product market fit yet, do you need someone to grip it? Like, do you need to hire a growth manager, I would, I would say you need a product tire, or you need to work with the founders or with a validation expert to really get that, right, because let's say you fundamentally need to change your products. And it is a physical product, versus a digital one. That's a long journey that takes a lot of time. And you also probably don't have like the budget sort of room yet to test and explore these areas. And then even if you do have that product market fit, if you don't know which channels you're going to be focusing on, let's say you've got the product market fit, you've worked out your business model, you know, there might be a few changes with the basis looks good, then you're working out your channels, let's say you hire a growth manager that's very experienced in SEO and in paid ads, they're going to see that most likely as the solution, they're going to try to look holistically. But that's where they know. And that's where they have the expertise. So it's natural that you know, you look at things like from that kind of perspective. And so I think that that's the second part where where they often get hired too early, it's like, you have no idea what channels are the right ones for you yet, so you don't know who to actually hire. So in those cases, I think it can be better to do have an interim head of growth, or to have a consultant or like multiple people help you out before you hire that head of growth because you don't know what their skill sets are. Or you need to go for a more well rounded head of growth and accent that you're going to have to hire certain specialists. And then the other thing I think all growth manager, whatever you want to call it a role because just like growth hacker there's a million names for these things. The other thing I think that so so is like a lot of again, I think a lot of people don't realise it so that I think when you hire a growth manager Uh, you do need to also have someone on the brand side or someone responsible for the brand side. Because often people think like, oh, okay, if I call it growth, I can just click marketing, sick brand sick product, and you hired as head of everything, but no one is amazing or all these different elements and especially brand new growth are such different skill sets. So I think the when is also dependent on like, do have someone who would take that part of it is assuming that that part is important for you that you do want to be building a brand, which as we talked about is a key element for a lot of E commerce companies. Okay, who is actually going to take that piece over? And how are you going to separate that role, because I've met very few people who are very good at brand and growth and are able to wear both those hats. But normally, that's not the case, they're very different skill sets. Lily Smith:  I think it's that brand kind of aspect is really interesting, because as product managers, we tend to, you know, really focus on the customer experience. And that means like, you know, the flows and the journeys, and the the feature set and stuff like that is not always the copywriting and the imagery and, and those kind of nice little things that bring the brand to life. So yeah, it's really that that point, it's really interesting. But one of the other things that I have seen one of the other functions that I've seen a lot in E commerce businesses, is that CRO function. Yeah, the conversion rate optimisation. What's your kind of experience with that function and how it works with growth and product? Daphne Tideman:  Yes, I think there's a huge overlap. So just to define it, like I think a lot of people think of conversion rate optimization as the very literal definition of it. optimising the conversion rate. To be honest, like sera, sera, specialists have been trying to change the whole name and definition of it, whenever I go to a conference a lot of because they realise that the floor and the naming of it. And, but for me, it's really about that focus of that what you were talking about the focus of that whole customer journey and optimising it to get to bring in new customers to, you know, bring value, I think is the most important word, versus like a very two dimensional focus on conversion rate that's quite volatile. And it's focused on just one element of it. And I think that zero is hugely overlapping growth. That's why we go to zero conferences. So often, but I think it's usually if a part of the growth for the product team. And it's actually one of the biggest high impact areas because the learnings that it's like one of the easiest to measure areas, when when you're testing things, especially if you have enough volume, if you don't have enough volume, you need to get creative and do things and otherwise. But surely you have enough traffic to test, you can start to learn fundamental things about your business, that you can apply in all different areas. So I think it's really the growth or product needs to lead it. But also make sure that that gets spread to the rest of the organisation because like, let's say, reviews work really well for you. And you're noticing that people are really resonating with certain types of reviews, or formats of it. How could you integrate that into email on to ads, and suddenly, you know that optimization on the site can have a way bigger impact across the whole customer journey, if you if you share it with the marketing team, if you share it with brand, they can start to learn like okay, how can we use this to help us further? Lily Smith:  Amazing Defty it's been so good talking to you and learning all about this. Thank you so much for joining us today. We've sadly run out of time. But yeah, it's been great. Thank you and I know that you've got a blog with loads of resources so we will point people in that direction as well for more content from me. Daphne Tideman:  Thanks so much for having me. Lily Smith:  The product experience is the first and the best podcast from mine the product. Our hosts are me, Lily Smith, Randy Silver:  and me Randy silver. Lily Smith:  Louron Pratt is our producer and Luke Smith is our editor. Randy Silver:  Our theme music is from humbard baseband power. That's P AU. Thanks to Arnie killer who curates both product tank and MTP engage in Hamburg and who also plays bass in the band for letting us use their music. You can connect with your local product community via product tank, regular free meetups in over 200 cities worldwide. Lily Smith:  If there's not one near you, maybe you should think about starting one. To find out more go to mind the product.com forward slash product Thank you